Joey Pinz Discipline Conversations

#875 Patrick Donadio: 🎤 The Lost Art of Real Communication

• Joey Pinz • Episode 875

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🧠 What makes someone unforgettable when they speak?

Why do so many people hear… but never truly listen?

In this powerful episode of Joey Pinz Conversations, Joey Pinz sits down with communication strategist, executive coach, and keynote speaker Patrick Donadio for a deep conversation on leadership, listening, storytelling, and the psychology behind meaningful communication.

Patrick shares how growing up in a loud Italian household, learning from his immigrant grandparents, singing in bands, and traveling to Japan helped shape his IMPACT communication framework. 🇮🇹🎶🇯🇵

The conversation explores:

✅ Why communication failures destroy relationships and businesses

✅ The difference between hearing and active listening

✅ How confidence is built through mentors and life experiences

✅ Why systems and consistency matter in leadership

✅ How to become more memorable when speaking

🔥 Top 3 Highlights:

• Patrick’s life-changing trip to Japan and the origin of the IMPACT framework

• The emotional influence of his Italian grandparents and childhood mentors

• Why great communicators focus more on connection than perfection

This episode is packed with wisdom for leaders, entrepreneurs, speakers, coaches, podcasters, and anyone looking to improve communication skills in business and life.

#CommunicationSkills #Leadership #PublicSpeaking #ActiveListening #JoeyPinz #Podcast #ExecutiveCoaching #PersonalGrowth #Mindset #LeadershipDevelopment #Communication #Speaker #BusinessGrowth #SelfImprovement #HumanConnection

 

 

 

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Discipline. How does it play a role in your life? How does it drive your decisions? Do you have too much or too little? Every profession, hobby, or passion requires a level of discipline. I have used it in weight loss (+130 lbs.), family death, and found a +25 year business. Am I an expert? Absolutely not! Please join me, as I speak to interesting people and find out how discipline affects their career, life, goals, and decisions. Join me as I talk to interesting people in: #Health, #Fitness & #Wellness: #Business, #Technology & #Science: #Art & #Culture: Website: joeypinz.com All social media @TheJoeyPinz Do you wish to Sponsor? Get the prospectus here: www.joeypinz.com/sponsor

 

 

 

 

 

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SPEAKER_00

David Grau Sr. Fascinating discussion with David um from the Midwest, very interesting upbringing, had a father who would was a kind of serial entrepreneur where he started these businesses and then sell them and start another one. Um fascinating reason as to why he did that. But uh David kind of caught this bug and knew he was gonna start a small business and he went to law school. The reason why he went to law school is fascinating, by the way. Uh his uncle giving him one of the giving him a great gift. So he started a business, a consulting business, and uh the way he hired people brought in a CEO because he knew he couldn't do that. And um the fascinating road to where to the business that he started as a lawyer is one or two people to go into plus and how he how he brought his his offspring in and then what happened there and the uh the important lessons done there. And he his passion has always been writing, and he's got multiple books that he talks about as well about being on a treadmill, about having a business and you know, just not having a job, but actually having a business and having it grow. A fascinating discussion is you want discipline, very unique as well. It really opens up. It's a really, really interesting conversation. I I appreciate David your time and thank you for watching this. Hi, I'm Joey Pins, and here's my 45-second introduction. After starting my business in the 90s, I started developing poor habits of eating in my diet because of working way too much. Before you know, I found myself 340 pounds. The doctor told me if I don't lose the weight, I'm not gonna see my daughter graduate. Took the next seven months, lost 130 pounds. People think there's some secret. Ask me, how'd you lose that weight? Like there's some secret. There is no secret. How'd I lose the weight? Just one word discipline. I've had other successes in life, and I attribute them all to discipline. Now I'm not the king of discipline, but I believe that it can help all of us. Friends, colleagues convinced me to start a podcast. The podcast mission: how do we better ourselves and society? I talked to interesting people in health, fitness, sport, wellness, business, technology, science, art, and culture. And I eventually asked them how discipline plays a role in their life. Podcast Vision, growth through learning from others. Tell me what kind of books grab you.

SPEAKER_02

Well, um I actually I like writing more than I like reading. Um, I like to share my stories with people. So um my newest book, which came out last week, is called The Founder's Treadmill. And and I wrote this as, you know, I don't know if you're a Star Wars fan, but you know, they they did the original Star Wars and then they went back and they did some prequels, then they did some sequels. Well, my first book was Building with the End in Mind, which is all about taking a business and perpetuating it. But I kept running into a problem. In other words, perpetuating it with, you know, father, son, mother, daughter, but also um owner and two or three or four key employees. But the problem I had in getting people to perpetuate their businesses was they were running on a treadmill, and literally it was a force of one founder 30 years later, um, still routed every primary decision through them. And so that they might have a team of 10 or 11 people, but everything goes through the boss and the owner. And that is a really tough model to perpetuate or to create successors in because nobody owns anything. And nobody wants to invest in a job, right? I mean, that's that's just not what you do. So, in order for the business to have equity, I had to go back and help get the owners off the treadmill first. And then we built an investable business, and then we could get people to buy into them and we could get banks to lend. So those are my, you know, I've written like six books, but those are the two that do most of the work, and they're my proudest accomplishments.

SPEAKER_00

So I uh yeah, I asked you would you like to write and read? So you I saw you or I heard you say you wanted to go into writing, but you decided to go into law school and then into securities eventually. But when you were writing at that point, was that nonfiction or fiction?

SPEAKER_02

Yes, so it's just uh real quick. So um grew up in the Midwest, um, little town off the corner of St. Joe, or off out the side of Michigan, um, Beton Harper, St. Joe, Michigan, which is where Whirlpool is at. My parents, my uncles, everybody worked at Whirlpool. And um that was supposed to be my destiny. But uh for some reason I just picked up writing um real early. And um, I went to a high school that happened to be um um, they had a a tenured Notre Dame, University of Notre Dame English professor. And I met him and he changed my life. Wow. And and he, you know, he did, he literally, I mean, he was very, very difficult taskmaster. But um I I walked by the time I got to be a freshman in high school, I won the, you know, the we had a pretty good side high school, and I won the the writing competition. When I graduated, I was elected to be most likely to be an author.

SPEAKER_01

Wow.

SPEAKER_02

And I loved writing. I just, I just always have. But I went to law school, and not because I wanted to be a lawyer. Um, I liked the writing element. And so I parlayed that into a business that ended up um 65 employees, and I had the chance to write two books for that company. I wrote um two dozen nationally published white papers. I wrote a column for Financial Planning Magazine for six years. And so, while I'm also a consultant, it was the writing that I always loved.

SPEAKER_00

So the mechanics of writing, explain to me. So it's all it's only nonfiction, but what what is it? What's the difference between speaking and writing, David?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, I love that question. Thank you. So um I I always hated speech glass. And and and in the work that I did, you know, um, I started this company from scratch, and then you know, we built it up into 65 um people and owners. Um, we worked all through the US and into Canada. But part of my job was I had to get up on stage and tell the audience how to perpetuate a business because I mean most people don't, that's just not second nature. And so, like it or not, I did I got up and I did a thousand speaking events. And Joy, here's what I learned. No matter how much I prepared, and no matter how hard I worked at speaking, I always sat down and said, Gosh, if I could do that over again, I would have said, I would have done this, I should have, you know, I honestly, a thousand events. I never got to the point where I off the stage and said, I got 100% of that right. So the long answer to your question is this when I write, I can get it exactly right every time. So it might take 10 or 15 drafts. Nobody is gonna see it until it's done. And when it's done, that's what I wanted to say. And so so writing gives me the control. You don't have to be perfect, but it can be pretty perfect.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, you get to uh you know, review and and and and edit. And uh so tell me, David, before the age of 18, tell me, tell me what drove you, what got you excited? What was your passion as a child in your formidable years?

SPEAKER_02

So I come from a long line of small business owners. And my my dad, for instance, just he went from like one small business to the next. So I got to watch the startup process, right? My my mom always complained that you know she never got to see the finish process because he was he liked the startup of the businesses. And so uh I was the oldest son, and I just got to hang around the small business entrepreneur mindset. I wasn't I was investing in the stock market by the time I was 13. Wow. And I, you know, I just that was my upbringing. Run a small business. And so when I went to law school, that's what I was thinking. I didn't want to go to you know, be a researcher or and sit in a library or work for somebody else. I wanted to open up my own practice and be my own boss, and I did it. I did not like the practice of law, but I liked running the business.

SPEAKER_00

So why did you go to law school then?

SPEAKER_02

You know, um, good question. Um when I was a child, we had um this my my um uncle uh Don, uh Don Grau, and and he was you know six foot four, blonde haired, blue-eyed. He was honored society straight A student, and everybody once said, you grow up, you want to be like that guy. And you know, a football player, quarterback, the whole works. And and I was, he was you know much older than I was, but um I remember I was about eight years old watching Don, and Don just couldn't miss, right? He went to law school and and he didn't make it. About halfway through, it just ate him up. And I was I was a child, right? But I remember the conversations and and it was treated as a failure, you know, and by this Adonis who couldn't fail. And I it never it always stuck with me. I thought, what's so tough about law school? You know, um, someday I'm gonna do it. I'm I'm gonna show them it can be done. I did. I I I regret it. I I don't I I don't like being a lawyer, I never did, but it was a challenge, right? And I just wanted to try it. And uh so I um came out of Purdue. Uh I got into Notre Dame and um Valparaiso and IUPY in the Midwest, but ended up on the West Coast, went to night school, um, passed the bar my first go-around, and uh, and I opened up a small securities law practice. Again, I didn't want to be a lawyer, I didn't want to go to court and argue. I wanted to build a business, and I parlayed that law practice into a national consulting firm. And I started a little company, we called it e-Harmony for financial advisors, right? We're gonna match these guys up with each other and help them find a partner. And it was tremendously successful. Uh, business continues on. I retired from it and uh I did my own succession plan. So I used law wisely. We'll put it that way.

SPEAKER_00

So your uncle gave you a gift. He didn't even realize it. And so did you did you find yourself often as a child kind of, you know, this can't this fighting back like that, kind of being rebellious, you know, this not, you know, this Adonis that you mentioned wasn't able to do it, so I'm going to do it. Did you have other examples of that kind of firefuel it gave you to accomplish something?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I um, you know, I have as I brought up my book, my family's kind of uh one redeeming superpower, if you will, was a Herculean work ethic. Now, as I got older, I realized working smarter would have been the better superpower, but but that's not what we got. And and my dad, as a small business owner, would I mean he would work, you know, 18-hour days, seven days in a row. And it wasn't work to him. He loved it. But I also learn that if you work that hard at something and and just don't don't don't take, you know, that's probably not a good lesson, but you know, don't take the time off. Just do it until it, you know, you gotta make it work. There's no you can't fail. And and that's what I saw. Um take chances, work hard, and you know, just don't let anybody outwork you. As I've gotten older, I've added working smart to that. Right. But that took a while to figure out.

SPEAKER_00

And was your father with these businesses that he was in your family, were they were they white collar or were they blue collar?

SPEAKER_02

I'm gonna call it blue collar. Um my family was always um, they were they were the workers. Uh but the the the difference was, you know, um my my dad and you know and his dad weren't afraid to take risks. And so um my my dad, for instance, started this little company called um Plastic LaPort Plastic Services. You know, they all worked at Whirlpool at one point in their life, so they knew what Whirlpool needed. Whirlpool back in the 50s and 60s was like the big, you know, elephant in the room. And and you know, they had thousands of people there. And so my dad would figure out something that Whirlpool needed, that nobody else produced, and he'd start a business. He'd build it, get the contracts, sell it. Uh, and then he'd do it again. And uh this the startup was what thrilled him. He loved that. But that that little company, the port plastic surfaces, it's still there today. 65 years later.

SPEAKER_00

Amazing.

SPEAKER_02

So he you know, he he found partners and he would sell it out. And so that's part of that perpetuation thing. I, you know, um, while he kept starting new businesses and leaving the old ones, um, my life is about keeping that business going. And let's, you know, um, Dad, you can't work forever. And so let's let's bring in, if it's not son or daughter, let's take two or three key employees and let's develop the discipline, you know, 15, 20 years before you need it, and let's build a business that is investable in the eyes of these, you know, 30 and 40-year-old youngsters, um, that's um equitable. In other words, you can buy and sell stock in it. Got to be like an S-corp or a C corporation. Um, but it's also got to be valuable and it's gotta be profitable. And if it does all of those things, then banks will get involved and lend money to the 35-year-old who wants to buy a five million dollar stake in this little business. And that makes it lendable. And so that's what I call building an equity-centric business: profitable, valuable, investable, lendable, and equitable.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I had a similar background, Dave. Well, my father was well, I asked about blue and white collar. He was an Italian immigrant, so he was a welder, you know. So he would have his business and I he would do these side hustles and start these businesses, welding and fixing trailers and things like that. So I would work with him doing that, but I got the technology bug and wanted to go a completely different direction. Uh, so there was a little bit of pushback there from him because it was just so different. But your father was actually creating businesses, it's very different, very different route. Um, I'm sorry, you're clicking something. Do you need to go?

SPEAKER_02

No, I I was just getting rid of everything else. I just remembered you said turn off all your other stuff. So it's turning it all off. Did you feel misunderstood as a kid? So I was three out of four and uh misunderstood. I felt ignored. You know, uh we're a family of six, and and my uh I had two older sisters who I they hate it when I say this, but I say we're much older. My oldest sister, Susan, was eight years older. My next sister, Mary, was six years older. And and just a real quick funny story. So so my two sisters, um, they were workaholics too, but they were also both class valedictorians. So my younger brother, who's about a year and a half younger than I, we we grew up often being called by the family oops and mistake. I didn't know what that meant at the time. You know, we weren't we weren't the bland kids. But we weren't the bright kids in the family. We just weren't. My sisters, every time I would go into you know a class at high school, the first question they would ask is, Oh, are you related to you know Susan and Mary? And boy, I can't wait to work with you. And I'm like, oh no. You know, and I wasn't that great of a student. Funny thing is, you know, now 50 years later, uh, my younger brother and I, um, we didn't make class validatory in anything, but we both graduated from law school. We both had great careers and nice houses and and everything we want. And my my two older sisters struggle at everything in life. You you just never know. Hmm. It's interesting. By the way, but your your blue-collar question was really interesting. Um, that's what you know. My dad, I wrote this for him because he never got off the treadmill. He did everything, he didn't really act as CEO. Um, he was out in the factory, you know, shirt sleeves rolled up, working on the stuff, teaching people, you know, he he loved to get his hands on it. And the idea of sitting in an office being the CEO, I that that was just not him. And and that was hard for me because uh, you know, you you try to, you know, you you do what you know, you follow what works, right? And I and I saw this formula work. But I didn't understand, and I wrote about this in my book, was that um when when you run off on the treadmill and and you're you're kind of a force of one, you have control over everything. But but you don't really have a business. You have a job with overhead, and eventually you just run out of bandwidth. What I didn't understand was that my dad would sell the businesses off fast enough that he never quite ran out of bandwidth. He would have. There's just a point where you just can't work anymore, and and but he would sell them. So, but if you want to have a business that's around 25, 30 years later, you have to get off that treadmill. And uh and and he just never, that just wasn't what intrigued him.

SPEAKER_00

Why why do you think that is? Why did he sell the businesses? Why didn't you keep them?

SPEAKER_02

You know, um he he I don't I I think my dad had a high school diploma, but in those days, you know, there was no such thing as GED, and and he had to work and support the family. And those were the stories that I heard. And and I I think that he um when it came time to be CEO and be the strategic planner and leader, uh, that was not comfortable for him. And so, but he also wasn't going to bring anybody else in, you know, to be over top of him and run his company. So when it got to the point where it absolutely had to have that C-level talent, that's when he'd sell it to somebody else who would do that kind of work. He wasn't comfortable doing it.

SPEAKER_00

You know, the Google founders never get enough credit for, you know, nobody ever talks about it, but I don't know, 15 years ago, they stepped aside and hired a CEO. They said, we can't do this, we can't bring this to the next level. We founded this, we understand it, and they hired it. You don't see any that I can think of other tech, even of the Mag 7 or Mag 8, whatever we're at now, it's originally it's the same CEO for a long time. Uh Microsoft went to like three or four, or maybe three at this point, but they don't get enough credit for that. And it's a very different skill to be a CEO, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02

I and in fact, you know, just it's funny, I I haven't had this discussion with anybody. Um, so thank you for the good questions. I did the same thing in my life, in my work. And so that's you know a lot about what I write about. Um, the business I built, you know, we started as two people. I was the lawyer, I had a legal assistant, and then we turned that into a national consulting business, and it grew and it grew and it grew. And and at about 25 to 30 people total, um, I brought in an outside CEO. Did you really? I I I I hadn't thought about it, but I liked the work with the clients. I I actually enjoyed getting up on stage and teaching. I liked delivering workshops. I, you know, I was the guy with the sleeves rolled up out there in the factory floor making it happen. And and I brought an outside CEO and it made all the difference in the world. Um, I I could not have done that job well. It's just that wasn't my personality.

SPEAKER_00

That's incredible insight. And so tell me about that process. How did you hire him or her? Did you go through many candidates? What kind of questions do you ask somebody who's going to be the CEO of your company?

SPEAKER_02

Well, I uh I uh the answer is I don't know because it kind of almost happened by accident. And I mean, we were at a uh a summer party, and I met this guy who was in between careers, he's a couple years older than I was, and had actually built uh a similar business to what I was building. And he was from Stanford. Turns out those guys are pretty smart, right? Yeah. And and and he just started talking to me and asking me questions. And um, you know, are you doing this? Have you thought about this? You know, do you have any kind of recurring revenue? At the time, you know, we were kind of a little e-harmony for financial advisors, and we get paid really well, but it was all commissioned. That's like living life on a roller coaster. And and again, it was in a business where I think we had like eight, nine, ten people, uh, you know, that all reported to me. And and he said, How about if I just come in the office for a couple of weeks? I'm just gonna follow you around, you know, kind of like an industrial engineer. I'll take notes, uh, that doesn't cost you anything, I'll I'll share some ideas with you. Oh my gosh. I mean, he he came in and he's the one who kind of gave me the idea. You don't own a business, son. You own a job. And you're working all the time, and you don't give control or authority to anybody here. They all have to bring one quick question to you 50 times a day. That is not a system. You can't work hard forever. You've got to start working smarter. And I said, tell me more. And we just kept talking. And like I said, he was between careers, he was interested. So I used some of that equity I had and um I hired him. There was nobody else applying for the job, Joey. But it was just amazing. Um as I look back, the the fixes that he brought in. In my book, I call them upgrades. And, you know, you gotta, you know, I knew how to set up the entity structures and all that because I had a law background, but I didn't know how to delegate authority. I didn't know how to hire for leverage. I had no idea what hiring for capacity even meant. Um I did I had the whole business up here in my head, right? I knew everything about it, but nobody else knew anything about it. And and then one of the first jobs and one of the first things I teach in the book is you got to get the business out of your head. And you know, it's part of creating the systems and processes, and then you got to get things off your plate. You can't do it all. And you know, as much as entrepreneurs like control, um, it's kind of a mirage because you know, at some point, if you control everything, you fall off your bike on the way home, you own nothing because nobody can do it. And so um he he just came in and kind of showed me the Stanford style, I guess, how to get this stuff you know away from me being the hub of the wheel and to create a really true network with systems and processes. And it took about five or six years. We did it. And eventually, um, you know, I sold some of my equity little by little to we had six key employees at the time, and they bought in, um, bought my second, I built my second house with you know the proceeds, and I just kept selling my stock little by little by little as it went up in value over the last 10 years of my career. And then about three years ago, I sold the last of it and called it a day. So now I write full-time and I consult.

SPEAKER_00

You know, that's my story. Very cool, David. I work with a lot of small businesses as well, and delegation is a very, very large obstacle for them to get over. Uh, how how do you teach, how do you train, how do you exemplify, how do you let them know how to get over delegation? Business owners.

SPEAKER_02

So you know, a real quick story how I learned it, because you're absolutely right. It's very hard. So um we started hiring people who were better than me. And I I say that now like that, it's old hat. I that was so hard to do. But but the first person that um we, you know, my because my my new CEO said, we need a marketing director. So I'm gonna go hire a marketing director. And and I said, we don't need one. I'm the marketing director. And he goes, No, you're not. He goes, how many marketing classes did you take in college? And I said, well, none. But I get up on stage, I write the column for Financial Planning Magazine, I you know, I handle all the calls and you know with the with the writers. And he goes, No, no, no, no, no. That's not, that's those are marketing functions. I'm talking leadership. He goes, I'm gonna go hire someone with a marketing degree, somebody who's got a marketing background with at least four or five years of experience in this particular industry doing what you do. And we're going to give that person a budget, and we're going to give them authority over that budget in that department, and they're going to lay out a marketing plan for one year, and then we're going to execute it month by month, week by week, against that budget with goals. And the goals are going to be we want to have 25% top-line growth per year. And if we hit it next year, we're going to double the budget. And and and so we went and brought this person in. And for the first time, I realized, okay, yeah, there are people out there, Joey, who are better at their given task than I will ever be. And then we went and hired a sales director to work with the marketing director. And then we went and you know, we just kept doing that. We kept hiring people who were better at their specialties than I could ever have hoped to be, no matter how hard I worked at it. Because it's what they love to do. And little by little, I started seeing things come off my plate. And the business got better as I did less. Now that's an unsettling feeling.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But it had to happen. At 65 people, I, you know, you just can't do all of it anymore. But the business got better as I got off that treadmill. That was just astonishing to watch it happen. But it had to happen. If it hadn't, the business wouldn't have made it, you know, through some of the recessions and whatnot.

SPEAKER_00

Oftentimes we see the owner as the um stop block of growth. You know, I I remember when I started my business, my friends would say to me, Must be so great not having any bosses. And I would say, well, every one of my clients is my boss. To a degree, my employees, the vendors. Uh, you know, so I have more bosses than I ever have. What are some other misconceptions about starting a business, David?

SPEAKER_02

Um You know, a lot of founders always say, you know, I like to keep it simple. You know, I want control, I want to keep it simple. And my response to them is hang on a minute. Um, this is gonna be your livelihood. Very short order, this will be the single largest, most valuable asset you own. You can try to think simple, but small businesses are complicated. And and no matter how simple you try to make it, you need an entity structure. You know after what a tax conduit is. You have to understand the difference between revenue and profits and capital. I mean, and then sometimes I, you know, people they're they're their heads just spin, but you go, you don't have to learn it all today, you don't have to learn it all tomorrow, but you have to start to learn it. Because if you want something that's gonna make you, you know, $250,000, $300,000 a year minimum, which is, I mean, you you almost have to think that way. If this, you know, it doesn't make that much, you might as well just go get a job. If you're gonna do all that stuff, you gotta do it right. And you gotta learn all the stuff that I learned. Even if you're just gonna end up with three people, you know, one owner and two employees, you still have to build something that can survive the loss of you. And so um it does get complicated. But sophisticated's a better word. But I think a lot of folks just say, well, I'm just gonna be a sole proprietorship and I'm just gonna kind of wing it. It's like, oh my gosh, that sounds complicated to me.

SPEAKER_00

What's different about starting a business when you did versus starting one now with all the technology, with AI, et cetera? What's different now about starting a business?

SPEAKER_02

Maybe information overload. Um, when I started, you know, my first law practice, um when was it like 35, 40 years ago? Um, I went to the local Hallmark bookstore. I bought a book on how to start a law practice. There was only one book. I didn't have to search through a whole bunch of choices. You know, that wasn't even a thing on anybody's mind at the time. And so um, I read a book and then I asked a lot of questions of anybody and everyone that would answer them. That was my information source. People. And um, gosh, I can't even imagine what be like starting a practice now. There's so much information. I think you you you have the opposite problem. How do you figure out the information that's actually useful?

SPEAKER_00

Right, that's right.

SPEAKER_02

And start to think, well, there's so many answers. I, you know, I can't go wrong. Oh, yes, you can. Almost like, you know, um analysis paralysis by analysis.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And you know, with a lot of the artificial intelligence, a lot of the AI, there's a lot of hallucinating, you know, so you have to really kind of weed that out. It's the actual opposite problem where there's too much. Yeah, it uh it's very different now.

SPEAKER_02

And and you know, and it's it's not all right. Right. But but it's but but you know, when I had my one book, which I still have on the shelf here someplace, you know, it was my it was my Bible for how to run a law practice. And there was no competing information. That was what I did. Um, so every day I'd come home and I'd reread another chapter and make sure I did a little better on that thing. But I I I would read it and then I'd go into work and I would do it. And that was simple to me. Um, and and I it was kind of wonderful in a way. Um it's just, you know, um I learned by doing. There wasn't really a much choice. Today, I don't know how people uh cut through all the noise. Um I I use AI in my life, but I I use it to confirm. I don't I don't use it to think. And in that respect, it's very helpful to me as a small business owner. Um it's a different world, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00

Certainly is. When asked, I'm not good enough, David, to give advice, but the three things that help my business, number one was joining a peer group. Now I'm in a group with other peers, I'm able to collaborate. You all often feel alone and kind of isolated as a CEO. And now I'm in a peer group, it's much easier to collaborate. Two is that entrepreneurial operating system. There's many of them out there. Get one, adopt it. And third is hire a coach. Be humble enough. You know, Tiger Woods still needed a coach, right? Be humble enough to hire a coach. What do you think about those three?

SPEAKER_02

I I I love those. Um, one of the things I wrote about in my book, I said, you know, let's start with the peer group. Um, when you surround yourself with peers, especially if you're a founder running on a treadmill, sitting down with 10 peers, roughly your age, who are all on the same treadmill with you, is you're not going to learn anything. You're just going to commiserate with each other. So, in that peer group, make sure you're not the smartest or loudest voice in that room. Find people who have done and gone where you hope to take your business. Those are the peers you want around you. And find people that will help you get there. Don't hire people that will make you feel good about what you've done. That's a therapy session. Um, you know, to that end, I think a peer group is a wonderful coaching session if you surround yourself with people who will tell you like it is and say, hey, I did what you did. I know where you've been, where you're at. That's not going to work much longer. Here's what you need to start to think about. And now start to talk with your peers about those thoughts. There's your coaching session right there. Yeah, you you need some other point of view, but you also need people who have done things that you haven't. And that was one of the smartest things I did. I don't know why I hired a coach so much, but I found people that were always about 10 times my size in terms of a small business, in terms of revenue or employees. And those are the people I asked the questions of how did you hire this person? How did you know what to get? How did you know when you needed a human resources, you know, director? Um, how do you handle, you know, we're working really hard still and we're bringing in people, but as fast as we grow, we keep reinvesting all the money. When do I get to take some of it home and enjoy it? And uh, you know, and you get a good, tough, you know, kind of a pure mentor coach who just tell you and said, Yeah, well, I did what you're talking about, and I made this mistake. You know, here's my suggestion. Hold off a little bit more, keep reinvesting. It's gonna pay you know a bounty to you in in the end, but enjoy it more later. Just, you know, make make it run efficiently and learn all the things you need to learn first. You're not done building a business when you get to a million dollars gross revenue. I thought, I thought, I achieved something, right? Well, you have, but you know, you got a lot of mortgages coming into work every day that need, you know, people that that come to work for you every day that have mortgages to pay, and and they need to know that um you know, you have a heart attack, you have a stroke, or you just want to take a month off on a thinking sabbatical, the business needs to keep growing. And so, you know, you just have to figure those things out. And uh I'd have never figured them out without a mentor or a coach. You know, bringing that outside CEO in it was just a game changer for me. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe I maybe I would have figured it out eventually, but I it's when you're running on that treadmill full speed, Joey, that's your system. And it feels it feels so right. And and you know, you got all this control, you're the smartest guy in the room, and and you're needed every single day. And and a lot of people, that's where their identity comes from. That's that was the case of my whole family. And and uh, but but you know, the the point of my my book, The Founder Treadmill Founders Treadmill, was you need to step back and and and look at what what you built and how you're building it at some point. And you know, my case, um, I at a million dollars gross, I just hit a wall. Couldn't go any further. Just out of time, out of energy. My, you know, my my wife wasn't really happy with it. You know, I was doing my father's, you know, method, working 80, 90 hours a week. Um, but I I just you know, I was so afraid to fail that um I I when when there was work to be done, I turned the treadmill up a couple notches faster. Wow, that was my system. It was all I knew. And by the way, that's the system most lawyers use, right? I mean, uh you hang out your shingle and you run on that treadmill. And of course you're the hub of the wheel. You're the person with the law degree. But that's not a business, that's a job with overhead. So it just getting that sense of perspective, you know, to your point, sitting down with a group of your peers, um, older, more experienced peers, um, sometimes you you just need a a sense of perspective that you can't you can never bring to the table about your own work.

SPEAKER_00

David, if we go back 10 years ago, just about 10 years ago, what did you believe firmly then that you no longer believe now?

SPEAKER_02

Um I I I believed that hard work was a system. I believed that that was the best way to build a business that could not fail. What I didn't understand was it's also a way to build a business that I'm not I'm not sure I would say cannot succeed, but it but it's very limited. It's limited to the the person running on that treadmill. And so I had to learn in my own business um how to let go. And gosh, is that hard, you know, um from a from a family of people who just always wanted to control everything and um weren't afraid to you know put in the Herculean work ethics. Um learning to not be needed for everything was incredibly hard. It was also brilliant. I mean that that's what you have to do. Yeah and and and I'm so glad I did it. I wouldn't be sitting here retired now. Um but boy was that tough.

SPEAKER_00

Is retirement is is what it's cracked up to be?

SPEAKER_02

No. Uh uh it's it's been hard for me, you know. Um I I I I do like to think that I learned to work smart and not work hard on everything. But um I real quick aside, when um when I when I first started you know this this national consulting company, and as I bought out the last of the original founding partners, there were five of us that started it, and I I I bought all four of them out. I was the youngest one in the room, but um, I bought them all out, and if I bought out the last one, he was a he was a CPA, and he he said, let me tell you what your job is next. It's to make yourself irrelevant. Right. And and I I remember laughing kind of nervously at that, but but but but that was that was this idea, the founder's treadmill. You can't it can't be all about you. He didn't lecture me. He didn't give me any hints about how to do it. He just said, when you're completely irrelevant, you will have built a business. And I went right back to work and I turned that treadmill up faster. I didn't quite get it, you know, until it came time to bring that CEO in. And and then um I did it, I made myself irrelevant. But to answer your question, um that's how you build a business. But then I also came to understand why my dad would would keep restarting businesses because um if you're an entrepreneur and and if if work ethic is your your superpower, um not being the smartest guy in the room, not being the person everyone comes to with help and challenges is a very lonely occupation. And and that's kind of how retirement has been to me. So um I sat down and I started writing all the books that I wanted to write. In four years, I wrote four books and and and I love that. Um, but now I think I've written my books and and I I like to do the consulting part. So I sit down and I literally teach small business owners A, how to get off the treadmill. And when they're ready, how to have the discipline to transfer ownership and control to the next generation. Well, you think it's hard to retire, try to transfer ownership and literally say, okay, I'm going to sell my equity, but I'm gonna sell it a little at a time, and and I'm gonna authorize my fellow partners to not just take ownership, to be owners. That's hard. It's hard for a lot of people to do. Um that's what I'm actually great at, um, and that's what I do for a living now, is I consult with forces of one who want to see their business continue on after they're done. And sometimes that takes 10 to 20 years to get that all done and figured out. It's not easy, but it sure is, it's remarkable when it happens. So I wrote a book called Building with the End in Mind to help people understand. It's got literally 50 lessons in it. Um, it's just like that law book I read, you know, 40 years ago. Um I had 50 lessons in it too. But I I help people understand what it takes if you want to build a business that outlives you. Well, if you can do that. That that's a master's class in learning how to build a business.

SPEAKER_00

I have friends that tell me, David, that they're failing at retirement.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, uh, you know, I I I think the best advice I ever got on that was don't don't run from something. You know, you you don't like your job, you don't like your partners, run to something. And um that that's kind of uh you know how I coach people now is that um if if you got if you got the heart and soul and the passion to be an entrepreneur, um I don't think that ever dies. No matter how small or how big the business, you you gotta channel that energy somewhere. And you don't want to feel irrelevant. So build something. It doesn't have to be a new business. Um, just like what I'm doing, I'm a force of one as a consultant. Um, I like to share my thoughts through my writing. So you you find something different to go to. But um, I don't think you can retire and go sit on the beach when you have you know the heart of an entrepreneur. That just doesn't work. At the same time, Joey, I am glad I don't have to worry, you know, about a four and a half million dollar annual payroll engine.

SPEAKER_00

Right, payroll taxes.

SPEAKER_02

Um we always had a line of credit, and you know, that that required the banks required us to put our houses on the line for things like that. And and you look back and you go, well, yeah, but the you know, the business is you know 30 years old, it's it's solid. I remember coming through the Great Recession. I remember, you know, the quiet time, you know, after 9-11. I mean, there were there were a lot of times I thought, I don't know if we're gonna make it. And you know, a lot of small businesses don't. Um Bureau of Labor Statistics say um two-thirds of small businesses don't make it until you're 10. Two-thirds.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And and you know, those aren't lazy people. They these are people that worked hard and struggled and saved, and and you know, they got far more right than wrong. Two-thirds still didn't make it, don't make it. And um that's you know, on Monday morning, I always woke up with a little extra spring in my step. I I I was uh all the way to the end, I think I was the first guy in that office more often than not. Just force of habit. And so um when I retired, I didn't change that. I still get up pretty early. Um, I I track my steps every day, but I I walk about seven miles a day. I'm not training for anything, that's just the nervous energy. Um, just you know, that's part of life, and uh, and I I I I found things to channel that energy into. Um used to dream about sitting on the beach, but that would never have worked. It's funny, my um we we bought a kind of an old farmhouse here and we've been remodeling it, and our contractor is 73 years old, and and he jokingly says, um, because I I I don't think I've worked as hard in my life as I did when I retired.

SPEAKER_00

I hear that too. Is there a question you wish more people asked you, David?

SPEAKER_02

You know, I'll know the answer to that question tonight at about 3 a.m. Um and for people in the audience listening, this is proof that Joey didn't telegraph these questions ahead of time. So you just got to deal with them. Um yeah, you know, what one of the things that I struggled with in my business um was the family element. And um I I see some folks, you know, just they they bring in a son or a daughter into the business, they don't really think twice about it. But I think that's one of the hardest things to do. You know, for for instance, um I had both my sons working at my business. They worked for me for a combined 18 years, but the business grew past me. That was the goal, right? That was that was by design, but it also grew past them. And and and that didn't sit well. And and that was kind of a didn't sit well with you or them? Didn't sit well with them. And I I I I don't like to use the word, you know, in entitlement. I don't think that's fair, but um I think family members do feel that you know they're they they've got the inside track in terms of of the next generation. They literally are your next generation. But our business, you know, um, we we brought in professional outside um uh accountants and cash flow analysts, uh, lawyers and regulators and IT people, and and those weren't the skills, you know, that my kids had, my family had brought to the table. And so when the time came, you know, um to perpetuate the business, um, you know, I I certainly offered them ownership, but I didn't give it away. Um they had they had to buy it, and the business had grown and gotten pretty expensive by that time. And so they they could only buy a little bit of it. And um, you know, they they didn't like the direction I took it. They didn't like all the outside talent that came in, and and both of them left unhappily. Wow. And so I I I wish people would would would stop and just think about that a little more carefully because uh I've consulted on a lot of family law cases, and it's it's a it's a beautiful thing when a family business works, but it's just almost tragic when it doesn't. Um that's just the one I sometimes it's just easier to hire non-relatives. If it doesn't work out, you can go your separate ways, and you don't have to sit down at the Thanksgiving dinner table with them. So that's that's the one thing I I wish people would talk about a little bit more and think about before they do it.

SPEAKER_00

What a valuable lesson there. What a valuable lesson there, David.

SPEAKER_02

And um it doesn't always work out, right?

SPEAKER_00

Doesn't work out, yeah. Yeah, because we see that, you know, and sometimes we see the direct opposite, nepotism, whatever you want to call it. And yeah, um, but yeah, that's a very, very valuable lesson. Um, yeah, thanks for sharing that. So I I started my business in the 90s and I was like yourself, I was working 14, 16 hour days and not paying attention to myself. I wasn't working out anymore, I wasn't walking like you do now, you're seven miles and you know, developing bad eating habits and diet, etc. So I get in front of the doctor, she tells me I'm at 340 pounds. So I gained all this terrible amount of weight. I didn't realize, I knew I was getting big, but I didn't realize I was getting that big. And she tells me if you don't lose this weight, you're not gonna see your daughter graduate. So my daughter was just born, scared the life out of it. Not only did it scare me, it angered me, right? Because I'm driving home thinking I can abuse myself all I want, but I've got this family now. It's much bigger. I was in my 20s, I felt I was invincible, but you know, I've got to make changes. So the next six, seven months, lost about 120 pounds, and I kept it off. You can't look at this as like a finishing line, right? These are lifelong changes. And when people ask me what's your secret, what you do, I always say, and you alluded to it earlier when when selling your business or when delegating discipline, right? I say, discipline, that's how I lost it. Focus, motivation, routine. Uh, how does discipline play a role in your life, David?

SPEAKER_02

Um so, you know, first of all, you know, getting off of my own business treadmill and and bringing better people in than me. And then growing that business, you know, from you know, two people to 30 to 60, I don't know where it's at now, probably 70-ish people. And then to perpetuate the business, in other words, you know, I I had built it, I had taken a lot of things off my plate. Then I started taking equity off my plate, selling out what it was I had built and uh you know, had owned. That business was my life. I mean, it literally, it's probably one of the most proudest things, things I'm most proud of that I ever accomplished was building that small business. But it you know, it was pretty successful. But but then just to stick with that succession plan, you know, even as my you know, my my kids ended up leaving, um, people would buy in. Um, most of the time that worked, sometimes it didn't. But we stuck, we stuck with it. And and you know, at one point we had um six other next gen owners that you know that I helped buy my stock. And and you know, I I not only taught them how to do it, uh, I had to go down to the local bank and teach them how to you know lend money to a 32-year-old who owned 6% of the business and and literally had you know no control. They're a minority owner. Um, I figured that out and I taught them how to do it. I stayed with it all the way to the end. And ultimately retired and then sat down and I started to write about it. And you know, and my my point is each one of those steps on the journey, um, while they required discipline, they all took a different kind of discipline. And that was kind of fun to have to learn and figure that out. Because, you know, as you stand up, you start a small business and you run on that treadmill, and you look back and you go, okay, well, that's that that that's not a system, that's not gonna last. But it is how you start a small business in most cases, and you have to have the discipline to make that work. Then you have to have the discipline to change and and and to apply, you know, all the upgrades and lessons to take that, you know, owning a job with overhead and making it into a business. That's a different kind of discipline. And then to take that business and perpetuate it and let it go and put it into the hands of younger folks who are going to do even better than you did. Oh my goodness. That that's an incredible amount of discipline to do that and to make that happen. And so many of the people I work with struggle. You know, they they start out and they go, oh, you know, I I don't want to feel um irrelevant. Um, I I don't want to lose control. I'll I'll sell equity, but I'm gonna keep 51% till the day I die. So, you know, the the disciplines that it takes over the course of time um were good for me. I had to adapt and I had to figure out new things. None of that was on the internet, none of that was AI. You know, you you roll up your sleeves and you just you just do it. And then I sat down and wrote books. Every single day I sat down and I worked on it. Writer's block, I don't allow it. Well, you sit down and you write. You don't have to keep all the words, but but you have to sit down and write. And you and you just do that every single day. So yet another kind of discipline. And what comes next, I don't know. But Joey, I do know I'll figure it out. And and whatever skills it takes, whatever discipline it requires, I'll figure it out. Just like you did. You do it. And you kind of did it because you had to. I think that's that's a good thing. It's it's really nice when uh you you must do it. But when you when you when you choose to do something like a succession plan, um, that's that's a different kind of discipline because you don't have to. You can keep being the hub of the wheel. You can keep being the most important person in the room if you want to. You're limiting your business, but so um it's been fun. It's been a journey of discovery.

SPEAKER_00

As a child, was discipline talked about in the household? Was it exemplified? Did you consider yourself what kind of role did it play there?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I you know, my um my my family, you know, um uh grandparents were German immigrants. And uh again, you know, my our our family's superpower was just this Herculean work ethic. That's that was how we solved every problem. Work it to death. So um, yeah, a very disciplined family. Um growing up, of course, you always think, well, they're way too hard on us, way much, much too much on the disciplined side. But um got us through life. We all did pretty well.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

You know, as I talk to you, David, I wonder the the art versus science question. How often when you're making decisions are you incorporating your gut? You know, do you kind of get the data and then make a decision? Like what is your process of decision making and has it changed?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, it's changed a lot. Um so I mean early on, again, you know, the the founder's treadmill. Um I made all the decisions, Joanne. I loved it that way. Um, but you know, I I also I you know at the time I started the business, you know, um there were just two of us. And and I had 11 years of college, you know, a law degree and undergraduate degrees. And um I always did, I don't mean any arrogance here, but for a long, long time, first 10 years of the business, I I was the smartest guy in the room. And I was the hardest worker. And I had the you know, the law background, which was a big part of our business. So, you know, who else would do it? But but little by little, it what changed, and I'm so glad it did, was when I when I when I brought in our you know, the outside consultant and and our CEO, I started to surround myself with people who were smarter than me. And it was wonderful not to have to make, I didn't mind making the final decision, but um I loved sitting in a room with five or six talented thinkers who didn't think like me. And you know, so I I had the law and the English major background, but you know, one person in that room would be an analyst, cash flow analyst. Another person would be a marketing or design illustrator. Um, I mean, you couldn't have three people who thought more differently than that. And and so you bring five or six people into a room and just think through a problem and get all these different points of view. And as I as I said in my book, I think it's real important um when you sit in a room like that that you not be the loudest voice. Um, be the person who talks last. Because the minute the boss says something, everyone wants to kind of go that direction, right? So I always loved to just hear all the other ideas and all the other voices. And to me, that was just such a relief not to have to figure everything out myself. And and I literally learned that most of the answers that came out of a group setting like that were better than what I had initially thought we should do or proposed. And even when I didn't always agree, um if if there was a strong consensus in the group, all those different ways of thinking, and and they came up with a good plan of action, and it was 180 degrees different than what I was going to do, more often than not, we tried we tried that plan.

unknown

Wow.

SPEAKER_02

And and um it was right most of the time. So I love thinking like that. Um, and but but I think the key is you have to be willing to hire people who are better than you at what it is they do. And and and you know, it's funny, I don't mean to overanswer the question, but you know, one of the challenges with with uh one of my sons was he would always hire people that were subordinate to him in every way. He didn't want to hire smarter people, and and and and I always thought as that is a very limiting factor. Um, you have to have the discipline to hire people that you can learn from.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Gosh, is that hard to do though? It is, but it's so worth it. Uh it's it changed our whole business when we started to do that.

SPEAKER_00

What's the difference between a leader and a manager?

SPEAKER_02

Um if I could answer the question uh um just a little bit different, I would say this. Um I first started um my business, I hired helpers. I I I didn't hire, I didn't give people authority to to own the the task that they were paid to do. So um I had to learn how to hire for leverage. And and so little by little we would bring in people and and give them tasks and give them boundaries, but let them own something all the way through to a conclusion. And then I thought, well, so so that's what I was missing. No, what I was missing was we had to hire for capacity. In other words, this is where I think the leaders come in. I think that, you know, for leverage, those are the managers. For capacity, those are the leaders. And and and the leaders not only owned it, but but they had people underneath them who reported to them. They owned the, you know, like our marketing director, you know, that that was a team of six, seven people. I didn't touch marketing functions other than to see the master plan for the year. Obviously, you know, we you know, with the our CEO's leadership, we would figure out what the budget would be, we'd figure out what the objectives were. But once it was blessed, marketing director was the leader. The people that reported to her, they were you know that the helpers, but but they, you know, they owned their task. But as CEO, uh as a president, which was my role in the company, um, we didn't run the marketing department. It had its own leader. It took a while to get all that in place, but um boy, you you've got to get there before you own a job with overhead. You can't be afraid to let it go.

SPEAKER_00

Has there been something in the last month or so, David, that you change your mind on?

SPEAKER_02

Um yeah, uh, you know, it's funny at the founder of Stradival, my newest book, literally went to um press last week. And and and shortly before it went to press, I added one last short chapter towards the end, and and I called it Looking Back. So keep in mind this is, you know, this is towards the end of a book in which I am trying to teach um forces of one how to build a business that can grow beyond them. And and the last chapter I added, um I I said, you know, one of the goals of this book is that I wanted to meet you as a business owner where you are. You may not want to build something that makes you irrelevant. You may not want to get off the treadmill, but you might want to run a little bit smarter, and that's okay. If if and I I literally wrote this, I said, you know, um, as I sit and I think about this, I miss my running on that treadmill. I I sold out of my business, I I hired better people, and and I implemented the full business plan. I got off the treadmill, and and on day one of retirement, I felt totally irrelevant. And I don't think that's a good feeling for anybody. Um, so would I do it differently next time? Yep. Um I I'm proud that I built this business, but I I would have probably stayed a part of it for longer. Um it was part of who I am. And and I I missed it terribly when I left. So that was my caution. And I added that last chapter, and it was funny. The the first review, that's what one of the readers said was most important to them, just to know that they could do all these things to build a bigger, better, stronger business. Didn't have to. And maybe they don't, they shouldn't. Those are all possibilities. And and so so the book isn't a one size fits all. Um, it tries to meet everybody where they are and and to leave you doing a little better than I found you. But I don't have to completely fix everything. Um sometimes that's not the right answer.

SPEAKER_00

What motivates you?

SPEAKER_02

That's not how I thought that's that's not how I thought it was going to end.

SPEAKER_00

Right. It's good to have that insight. What motivates you now, David?

SPEAKER_02

Um I like to teach. Um and so so the so the the role that I play now, um I I I started a uh a YouTube channel. I honestly I didn't even know what that really was until I did. But I I love to write and you know, um write out a lesson. And then and and to get on a camera and to teach. Um yesterday I sat down and I explained to people you know how an LLC actually works and all the different tax personalities it has. And I I don't want to teach like a lawyer, Joey. I want to teach like a teacher. Uh I want to make it fun. I want to make it interesting. Uh I want someone to to to watch that video or or to read a chapter on my book and say, that was really fascinating. Um I'll never forget that. And and it was fun to learn. So um I'm a consultant now. I I write full-time, but um I like to help people solve problems. I get on the phone, I get on Zoom, I get on YouTube, and I like to help them learn things. That's what gets me up in the morning.

SPEAKER_00

So you you like to teach, you didn't say the word, but I heard the word impact. It seems to me that you, you know, that really motivates you. So given that motivation of teaching and being impactful, how do you measure success now?

SPEAKER_02

Um, Joey, I'm still learning how to answer that question. You know, so when I when I sold out of the business and and and um and retired kind of, um, that that kind of solved the financial issue, which was what always had driven me before. That was how I measured, you know, my impact and my success in the world. And so that's funny, you know, when you retire, um that part, I you know, it's a good problem to have, right? That probab that part kind of goes away. So um initially, I I I decided I had I had a lot of things in my mind that I wanted to write about. I I just I love the writing process. And I I literally sat down and I wrote four books. Uh I don't write with AI, I I write you know from the heart and from the head. I I write a I write about a million words per manuscript in order to keep about 60 or 70,000.

SPEAKER_01

Wow.

SPEAKER_02

But but that's part of how you get good at it, right? So so that's what I did initially. And that's that ate up a lot of energy, and it made me feel good, it made me feel useful. And it's fun to watch my books, you know, get reviewed to sell. But but I but but that part of that that work is over. Now what I do is I get hired as a consultant to sit down and just as an example, this is like this is the stuff I really love to do and how I make an impact. Um, I I'll I'll get on a call with yesterday, for example, um, one owner who who has built a business and is now selling equity to three 30-something year olds, I call them. And so I get on a call with you know, one 60-year-old, well, two would count me, and then you know, three 30-something year olds, and we talk and I teach how to transfer that business from one generation to the next. And you know, it's not one way to do it, there's a thousand ways to do it. But but I I get to teach the 30-year-olds who, you know, Joey, they, you know, this is like magic. You know, I mean, they they are about to make an investment of a lifetime for a lifetime. And as part of the teaching, um, I often ask those three 30-year-olds to bring their spouses to the next call. And and I asked the owner, this the 60-year-old founder, to sit this one out. And I just want to talk to the six of them. And sometimes they, you know, they bring Uncle Charlie in too, because you know, they this is they're gonna buy stock, right? They're gonna go take out a series of two or three bank loans over the next 20 years and collectively those three and maybe one or two more, they're gonna buy out the founder. They're gonna buy out a business that's probably worth, by the time they're all done with principal and interest after taxes, $10 million. But it wouldn't make any difference if it were $1 million. It's the biggest investment of their life, right? I mean, it may be bigger than their house. And I'm telling you, when we sit and we talk, you know, we could have a two-hour teaching session. Time goes by like that. And and nobody's yawning, nobody, you know, if if if if they have to, you know, get to take a water break, they're like, don't say anything till I get back. Because this is, you know, this is the most important thing they've ever done. And Joey, that's that's fun for me. That's making an impact. And now that I've written the books, you know, most people who hire me have read the books. So the questions and the lessons, we remember these are you know master's level, doctorate level sessions. I mean, we really get into the detail in the weeds, but 95% of the time they say, I want to do it. Let's buy it. Spouses included. That's what I do for fun now.

SPEAKER_00

Seems real rewarding, David.

SPEAKER_02

I love it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I can tell.

SPEAKER_02

I get to build a business that's gonna be around 30 years after I'm gone. Just like my own small business.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. David, absolute pleasure talking to you. I love your passion. I love that um, you know, you you keep going and you keep fighting and you do what you love. It's it's really inspiring. Uh, anybody listening, how can we get in touch with you?

SPEAKER_02

Best best place to find me is on my author's website, um, www. david grou Sr. or DavidGrow senior.com. And um, yeah, in fact, I offer people the chance just to um pick out a 30-minute slot. It's a free consultation. Literally, it's free. I I don't have anything else to sell you other than my my books, really. And uh if you wonder what's next, if you wonder, might you be on that treadmill? Um, what what what should you fix? Um, what should you not fix? Um, I don't have anything to sell. Let's just talk. And and uh uh that's that's fun, especially if they've you know read some or most of one of my books. Um we could have a real detailed conversation about what they learned, um, where I scared them, um, but they're thinking they might need to change. And uh so before you do anything, let's just talk it out. And feel free to bring your spouse.

SPEAKER_00

Fantastic.

SPEAKER_02

I've been married for 47 years. You know, that's that's one of your partners, too.

SPEAKER_00

It sure is. Maybe the most important decision you've made. Yeah. Or we have we can make to have your life partner like that. I appreciate your time. Next time I'm in your your area, perhaps we'll get a cup of tea. Thank you so much today, David.

SPEAKER_02

My pleasure, Joey. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00

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